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LoganVivisected
23-07-2008, 04:57 PM
Lord-309pts
Tyrant
The Tenderiser
Kineater
Heavy Armour
Brace of Handguns
1 Luck Gnoblar

Hero-185
Butcher
2X Dispel Scroll
1 Tooth Gnoblar

Hero-230pts
Hunter
2X Saber tusk
Mastodon Armour

Core-286pts
6X Bulls
Bellower
Light armour
Hand weapons and Iron Fist

Core(Butchers group)-298pts
6X Iron guts
great weapons
heavy armour
Bellower

Core-318pts
6X Iron Guts
great weapons
heavy armour
Gut Lord
Bellower

Special-110pts
2X LeadBelchers

Special-110pts
2X LeadBelchers

Special-75pts
Gorger

Special-75pts
Gorger

Total-2000

Opinions? (Ive just started playing fantasy and all I have are the rule book, ogre codex, and an unassembled tyrant)

LoganVivisected
25-07-2008, 03:02 AM
Must be a flawless list? lol sweet!

Ok I suppose Ill explain the Lord/hero bits to the list...

Tyrant-
WS6 S5 A5 with the tenderizer means 5 attacks in combat causing D3 wounds each plus ogre bull charges...Swweeeet! The heavy armour and luck gnoblars add to his survivability because ogre armour sucks, but he has 5 wounds and can't be targeted when he's next to other ogres so this linebreaker should make it to the enemy no problem with his 12 inch marchs and his 6 inch move+12 inch charges.

Bruiser-
Just a guy to have on my flank with my leadbelchers to keep moral going with his rag banner. Almost as beastly in CC as a tyrant also will hopefully dissuade most from trying a flank attack he can dish out a potential 7 wounds on charge then 6 an assault phase at WS5 alone. Ogres have only average Ld so the banner should make them last longer should a skirmish not go over well.

Hunter-
Ok you guys may have noticed a lack of magic...This guy coupled with my Gorgers (of whom can enter the board at any edge) are my anti magic units. His harpoon launcher is a 36inch ranged weapon at S5 that penetrates ranks like a bolt thrower (cause ogres are just awesome enough to use ballistas as crossbows!). Also his sabertusk can charge independently from him to either tie up a block of infantry trying to stop me or chase down a running mage with their 16 inch charge. The mastodon armour means that if the hunter were to die from a wound not received in CC he stays in play with 1 wound on a 2+, should be plenty of time to make it to wizards/archers.

Jasfmpgh
25-07-2008, 01:07 PM
It does look like a good list Logan, I'm sorry that I don't have much to add but I'm not super familiar with the orge kingdoms. One thing about the list that would make me nervous is you seem to have many very expensive guys.. 300pt lord with 300 pt unit.. so a list like this would be in alot of trouble against dwarves or empire. They'll blast you with siege weapons which are the orges bane. Another problem is have only 2 dispel dice in a 2k army. Magic strong armies will easily put out 8-10 casting dice which is 4 or more spells which will get thru every turn. Do orges have any banners or enchanted items that help dispelling?

I think you'd make a stronger overall army by turning the iron guts into bulls and taking most of the magic items off of your leaders and simply giving them Great Weapons. (Orge hero's are the toughest out there, and they are in mosterous units, they don't need additional beatdown abilities. Five attacks at S7 pretty much gets it done against anyone.)

With the pts saved there buy additonal troops (Bulls or Leadbelchers?) or beef up your magic defense.

Hephesto
25-07-2008, 03:23 PM
Not much to add either, has been a while nice I've had to deal with Ogres. Their main problems appears to be their limited numbers when you do not take gnoblars. Once your units hit combat they'll do fine, but getting them care be tricky. Especially against very maneuverable armies.

I am a huge fan of the hunter though, one of the most versatile and effective units I have ever encountered! So best of luck with the army!

LoganVivisected
25-07-2008, 08:11 PM
It does look like a good list Logan, I'm sorry that I don't have much to add but I'm not super familiar with the orge kingdoms. One thing about the list that would make me nervous is you seem to have many very expensive guys.. 300pt lord with 300 pt unit.. so a list like this would be in alot of trouble against dwarves or empire. They'll blast you with siege weapons which are the orges bane. Another problem is have only 2 dispel dice in a 2k army. Magic strong armies will easily put out 8-10 casting dice which is 4 or more spells which will get thru every turn. Do orges have any banners or enchanted items that help dispelling?

I think you'd make a stronger overall army by turning the iron guts into bulls and taking most of the magic items off of your leaders and simply giving them Great Weapons. (Orge hero's are the toughest out there, and they are in mosterous units, they don't need additional beatdown abilities. Five attacks at S7 pretty much gets it done against anyone.)

With the pts saved there buy additonal troops (Bulls or Leadbelchers?) or beef up your magic defense.

Unfortunately ogre characters are all very expensive even without their special equipment. As for the special equipment it's divided into three basic categories. 1st being offensive items, like the tenderizer which is a great weapon (+2S) causing D3 wounds per wound and the Thunder Mace which uses a small template and treats models under the template as being wounded by a stone thrower-S4(8) hits. Originally I was going to use a normal great weapon but Farskit advised me to make use of the awesome weapon access that Ogre Tyrants have. The 2nd category would be items that make it harder to get the ogres to run away in fear- The Rag Banner standard and Kineater name are both items from this in that they rally fleeing troops and allow me to re-roll failed leadership test. This way when my Tyrant and his 12 iron guts are charging into combat even with casualties (and it will be hard given that its a total of 18 wounds per block with a T4) I will hopefully get my squads into the thick of combat before too many go down. Ive heard from plenty of ogre players elsewhere that Bulls are only good for speed bumps or assisting Iron Guts so I should never depend on them to be the spine of my army. The last category of special equipment in the Ogre's list is magic defense items, such as Greedy Fist which strips all magical abilities from any weapons being carried by a character hit by the ogre and Great Skull which causes the enemy to miss cast on rolls of double 1,2 and 3. Most of the anti-magic gear though solely protects the character (such as causing the offending caster to target a friendly unit within 6 inches of the target character/unit instead) so with low numbers things like that really don't help me. This is why I opted for gear that would allow me to keep my units from fleeing and add massive amounts of damage when they get to combat to make up for any potential losses I sustained. Ogres really need to watch out for archers/ranged units but thats why I went with the hunter and gorgers- I hear they are some of the best units in the game for wizard/war machine hunting. Other than that its keeping everyone moving forwards to hopefully hit an initial blow that cripples the enemies offensive capabilities ASAP. Ogres can march 12 inches or charge 18 inches, and so are one of the fastest armies around. Hopefully that means I will be in charge of choosing combats.

Take Iron Guts-6 means 3 bull charges at S5 on the enemy (ranked three in front, three in back), then 18 S6 attacks!

As for why I have no gnoblars of any sort besides the luck gnoblars on my Tyrant is because I just flat out don't like them.

Jasfmpgh
25-07-2008, 11:22 PM
Btw, I love tatic discussions like this.. so don't think I'm getting all cranky on you. Its just awesome to get advice from people that learned and play the game totally different ways.

I agree on the gnoblars.. some people try to use them as screens. It jsut doesn't work.

Ok, while I do agree with you that both the gorger and the hunter are excellent at the role you discribe for them. Attempting to hunt down wizards isn't as easy as it might seem. Many players hide they're casters in units.. especially now that you can shoot at indepentant characters wandering around on they're own. Shooty armies will also leave troops behind to defend they're base of fire. (A dwarf slayer, A master engineer, a Empire captian are all popular choices.) So at the very least its going to take time for this strat to shut down the enemy magic. Two dispel scrolls on a cheap caster would give you the time you need, to keep comets, walls of fire and the like from really ruining your day.

And on the subject of ironguts commanded by your lord, when you start sinking alot of points into a unit you start running into a problem. The unit simply can't kill enough to earn its pts back. You'll constantly find yourself march blocked or targeted with movement slowing magic. Another cruel trick with huge units like this is to give them something weak to chase and lead them off a board edge, by angling your bait unit you can turn the opponents unit to direct them where you want them.

In general I find that Warhammer fantasy is more fun when people rely heavily on core troops, and lean away from massive units of elite troops led by powerful heros. It can often turn into a arms race which takes away from the heart of the game. (My unit of 14 Chosen knights of corn charge your skeletons, don't forget the lord and exhalted champ also in the unit... ok 35 wounds for me no attacks back for you.. while on the otherside of the battle my zombie dragon riding blood dragon vampire lord destroys the rest of his army. Which is one of the reasons we no longer play with lords in any size battle.) The battles I play in 6 orge bulls is a serious force. 3 strength 5 hits followed by 12 strength 4 attacks.. thats serious damage. I'm not sure what armies you face and what tatics they use, but don't you find strength 6 to be overkill?

Anyways, I've been using army builder and checking out the army a little more and I think you did a goodjob building your army. (Steering away from the pt wasters) And you really didn't equip your guys so heavily.. they just are expensive to begin with. The only thing I might think about losing is the armor (esp the light stuff on your bulls) you have to pay for and the luck gnoblars and just rely on your high toughness and wounds instead. Also I see both those magic items help with panic, do you have alot of trouble with that? It seems like orges would be hard to panic. I'm more inclined to go for the victory laurels and the gut maw. That and throw some handguns on your Tyrant to.. BS 4, why not?

I also have a question for you, do orges have a special rule about rank bonus?

Thanks for the fun.

LoganVivisected
26-07-2008, 12:35 AM
The discussion is why I posted this man, I'm here for any tips/crit I can get :)

Oh and I'm still learning lol, like I said all I have is the rulebook, OK book, and a Tyrant (that is now being converted/GSed, not totally unbuilt anymore). Never played a game yet, just reading all I can on other armies, tactics, articles on GW and batreps. So all my tactical reasoning is coming from playing 40k as an offensive CSM player.

As for my Caster hunters...would you then say that ditching the bruiser in favor of a butcher with 2X dispell scrolls? That would take a chunk out of my combat capabilities so how reliable is the gut magic and potential dispells in favor of a hero that can rally fleeing troops and provide a hefty speed bump for anyone trying to get through my flanks?

Along the lines of me being held up by blocks of infantry...How probable is this against a group of soldiers that should theoretically be able to destroy just about any standard infantry block first combat and also causes fear and deals more high strength wounds than most armies can distribute throughout one block? (Dont take this as disagreeing with you, just wanting to know loosing these capabilities will help me). Iron Guts are standard core troops and are only 13 pts more than bulls on an individual bases, yet are much more survivable and cause a great deal more amount of damage. As for point sinks in OK, I'm not seeing a way around it really, by taking large enough units of even bulls to gain their charge bonus and not have to worry about them fleeing first time a model dies I'm still right around 300pts. (Answer to your rank question-All ogres deal a wound if they charge 6 inches or more into combat on the enemy, +1 for every ogre behind them, it's called a Bull Charge).

So see I am using mainly core troops with supporting heros/lords, Ogres are just exceptionally strong (which is why a 2K list allows me a meager 29 models :P). As to what armies I usually face...well haven't faced any yet but I know there are VC players, Empire players, O&G players, Skaven, and Dwarfs...Few more here and there. As for panic...most Ogres have a LD of 7 or 8...but low numbers means when one dies its a bigger deal to me than when say a TK skeleton or Skaven clan rat dies...also apparently from what I've read it's a tactic that people try hard on ogres, rather than beat them in a fight try to make them run. So it's something I decided on to be safe; rather die to the last man than see my whole army take off cause they got spooked.

Also what is this army builder?

Jasfmpgh
26-07-2008, 01:13 AM
http://www.wolflair.com/ thats army builder. Its a computer program that helps you build armies.

As to my ranks questions, I ment do Orge's only need to be 3 wide to get a rank bonus for combat resolution instead of the normal 5 wide?

On the magic end of things, I would say taking a butcher with 2 dispel scrolls would go a long way to shore up your magic defense. Plus the butcher is still a decent combatant. The only downside is he won't get off many spells at all, at least until you start killing off the enemies casters. I think switching him for the bruiser would be a good idea. Besides if you use your leadbelchers to guard your flanks you won't have too much to worry about. Just stick the caster in with one of your iron gut units.

As for being held up by blocks of troops, the problem isn't really killing them.. its the position it puts you in after you do. A common tatic used against really badass units is to send cannon fodder against them. You'll see vampire counts summon a unit of 5 zombies like a inch away from your lords unit, and at a almost 40 degree angle. If you charge them your sure to destroy them.. but you will only move a inch, and be at a weird angle. Now you can chose to sweeping advance, 2d6 inches.. but its straight ahead in the direction the unit is now facing.. so you could end up going to far at the new angle.. exposing your flank to a tough enemy unit (Flank attacks are death for orges btw.) If choose not to sweeping advance it took your whole turn to go 1 inch, and they'll be 5 more zombies in front of you next turn. If an unit is near the edge of the board you can even use this tatic to draw them off the board for a round and have them waste a round comming back. (It works best against frenzied units.. but is a fine way to deal with units you can't beat in CC.) Many armies have units that can pull this move off, eagles for the elves, warhawks for the wood elves. The best defense against this move is to have 3 really strong combat units, instead of 1 amazing unit and 2 average units.

The more I study the Orge Kingdoms, I have to agree with you.. bulls and ironguts are almost the same in pts so why not take ironguts. You did a good job with your first army list for sure. I'd stick the Tyrant with bargin basement bulls (Full command + 2nd weapon) and use the iron guts to both of his flanks. Also I didn't mean to say that you were going crazy stacking 1 unit, I was just making a example of a easy trap to fall in to.. esp with a army like orge kingdoms.

Going on my experience with orge kingdoms though I have no doubt your gonna own face. Its hard to go wrong with fast, hard hitting, and tough to kill. Most people will be quite suprised how quickly your on them and how fast you shatter they're units.

LoganVivisected
26-07-2008, 02:57 AM
Hmm so you have to pay for the army builder? Thats too bad...Still looks neat.

Alright no bruiser with a butcher that has a dispell scroll and a tyrant with handguns it brings me to 1995pts, so if I drop 1 Gut Lord in an Iron guts unit it will make a unit of 5 leaving me with enough points to give my butcher a second dispel scroll, this will also be the unit who's hole I plug with that butcher (it's magic buffs should toughen the unit back up since it's loosing the leader), so I end at 2000pts even.

With this I will stick my Tyrant right in the middle of my wall'o'ogres leading the bulls with a unit of Iron guts on each side (one of which will have my butcher). Then behind the iron guts (think reverse horse shoe shape) will follow my two groups of Leadbelchers. Whichever side doesn't have the butcher will be the side I run my hunter up for flanks.

Thanks for the tips, now to spend some money :)

Jasfmpgh
26-07-2008, 12:52 PM
Sounds really solid.. you'll have to let us know how it turns out.

LoganVivisected
13-09-2008, 07:18 PM
For the fun of it (and because I wanted to have a giant!) I made a seperate 1K army. This one runs on an entire different strategy, one of false routs and flank traps with small units. Supposed to do pretty good on small scale games with OK. Only 2 dispell but I figured I would have some fun. I also made it with being able to add it to my 2K army in mind for larger games.

HQ
Bruiser
Cathayan Long Sword (+WS and I on an Ogre? Yesh please, plus it is AP)
Brace of Handguns
Heavy Armor
Long Strider (special name)

Troop1
Iron Guts X3
Gut Lord
Bellower

Troop2
Iron Guts X3
Gut Lord
Bellower

Troop3
Bulls X3
Full Command
Lookout Gnoblar
X3 extra weapons
Crusher has light armor

Special
Leadbelchers X2
Thunder Fist

Rare
Slave Giant

Total: 997

The idea is Leadbelchers for anti-flankers while the troops set up charges, flee, then have supporting IGs come into the flanks, rally, and do it all over again. The Bruiser will stay in the middle of the line to help where ever he is needed with his bonus movement from long strider making him even quicker than normal.

Hephesto
13-09-2008, 07:25 PM
Normally I'd be worried about the very small number of minis/unitsize, but I've seen Ogres in action. So I have little doubt this would work just fine!

LoganVivisected
13-09-2008, 07:38 PM
This is actually modeled off of a few tourney list I've seen...It is reeally small which is why it works fine in smaller games because of the sheer toughness of ogres. It's basically if you can weather the first turn charge up the field then you just bait all their units (1K doesnt leave room for much for any list, at least large tooled up blocks) so basically you use the ogre "cause fear" to flank them when they go for the bait unit and break 1-2 blocks a turn. You keep them so they always have some guys running away and leave their blocks unsupported which is what you don't want to have happening fighting ogres.

SquallEvoker
14-09-2008, 11:58 AM
This army won't work. If you look in the army book under the bull's profile, you'll notice it says, "1+." You need to field at least one unit of bulls.

LoganVivisected
15-09-2008, 06:23 AM
Good catch, and fixed. (Ya know I never caught that?)

SquallEvoker
15-09-2008, 01:16 PM
Now my question is why you gave the bulls a standard. And a lookout... Seriously, bulls are like the speed bump of the Ogre Kingdoms. I've had them lose to units of goblins, just because they never hit hard enough to make up for the base -4 they start at.

LoganVivisected
15-09-2008, 01:50 PM
Because of what they now lose out do to lack of GWs. This set up for an army isn't meant to win stand up fights, it's meant to rout enemy blocks through combat res by luring the enemy into flank charges by other blocks. They don't have the heavy armor that the IGs have so the extra "look out" keeps the leader around by at least a chance longer and the banner adds to combat res what they would lose in attack damage. :) This is a fairly standard tourny comp list for OK for smaller points as it forces enemy blocks into traps with the ogre's high movement and massive amount of attacks on the charge. It shouldn't see any combats lasting longer than a turn or two because it should have the block fleeing and be setting up for the next as quickly as possible.

Jasfmpgh
16-09-2008, 07:28 PM
Its a sort of risky strat.. not something I'd try in a larger game.. but in a small game your not very likely to face huge blocks of guys.. and if you do there won't be alot of them some you'll have time to outflank them.. I never play games below 1.5 k.. maybe I'll put something together and see what kind of forces you'd be facing..