Oh no, not another fan based local Mordheim rules modification

[azoxystrobin]

Yes, another one.
We wanted to bring the Mordheim rules forward into v8, sort of, but mostly iron out some of the obvious flaws in the original rules. (did I metion skaven being ever so slightly overpowered ?)
I checked out the intertubes, looked at some Mordheim sites, saw Coreheim etc.
But none of those really hit the mark, we were looking for something more akin to awesome-heim.
We're calling it la Rochelle-heim, with us being in la Rochelle.

So the question is; first strike in warhammer v8 is really good, re-roll to hit if the model has same or higher intiative.

The shield parry save (6+ invulnerable save in melee) is also really good.
Shields would become useful, but I fear that this will lead to gangs of unruly outlaws all equipped with spears + shields, like regular infantry really, which seems like a shame.

So do we keep the v8 tweaks (reroll to hit with first strike and the "shield + hand weapon" parry rule?)
Or go for a mishmash of v7, v8 and mordheim?
For instance: shield + hand weapon just gives an extra +1 to the save?
First strike just lets you strike first? (which is pretty good already)

Actually there are about a ton of changes, if anyone would care to comment?

All gangs have max 15 fighters, 5 heros, and can't have more animals than heros.
Most shooting weapons are more expensive. Shooting weapons can only be used for shooting, never in melee. Ever.
Sling = Shortbow (10gc)
Armor is half price (Heavy = 25gc, Light = 10gc) No movement penalties for wearing armor.
Charge range is random: roll 2D6, keep highest, add movement stat.
(four legged things get to roll 3D6 and keep the two highest)
All combat, even when charging is done in initiative order.
Charging gives +1 attack.

That's quite a lot of change, but the devil is in the detail:
Halbard is two handed, +1Str, first strike (15gc)
Great weapon is two handed, retains weapon qualities, +2str, strike last (15gc)
Spear is one handed, first strike, unwieldy (can't use a 2nd weapon in other hand) (10gc)
Sword, one hand, parry (5gc) parry forces enemy to reroll highest to hit die in melee. Both the axe and hammer cost 5gc too.
blessed weapons/ cursed weapons get +1 to wound bad guys/good guys respectively, and cost twice the price of a normal weapon.
(so we can have blessed ithilimar morgensterns lol)
There are lots of other minor tweaks too, like drugs, poisons, special ammo et al. being only for the duration of a single battle, then you have to buy more.
Wizards get to use 3D6 to cast a spell if they don't move during their turn (and aren't in contact with an enemy either)
Rat ogre becomes a skaven only mercenary. (same price as a normal ogre for humies)

[Marticus]

righty, so ive taken a look at this, as ive played mordheim since it was first released, so heres my thoughts on it....

first strike re-roll?? there is nor ule in 8th that allows that unless you have the alwasy strike first rule. thats the only time it should be allowed witht he higher initiave otherwise i say not. nor should the spear allow you to re-roll as the spear itself gets the rule, UNLESS the wielder has the always strikes first rule. The parry rule with the sword and buckler allowing the re-roll of the parry is adequate as the buckler is small and meant to be fast and used for that. im not sure its right in mordheim to allow an invulnerable from a shiled, as this isnt blocks of infantry forming a "shield wall" rather then individual whirling melee fighting. i think the invulnerable would be too powerful. and i can see everyone running around with them so i would leave them as they are, though adding plus one to the save for hand weapon and shiled would make sense.


I think 8th fantasy is an abomination of an edition, so all the random charging stuff can be kept out of mordheim, dont like the idea of that at all.
maximum gang sizes? no.... i think they are fine with the sizes available set to specific races, it makes sense that the plentiful ratmen would have more guys then an elite with hunters warband etc.

ranged weapons are priced fine i think, with the amount of cover in mordheim, its usually fine to work from cover to cover anyway.
the armour dropping in price, i agree, it IS too expensive, and also scrapping the movement penalties works for me as well.

righty, combat in initiave order? no.. keep it as it is for the charge goes first, then iniative order. and no random charges. also plus one attack for charging, no dont agree with that either.

halberd being a first strike weapon, no it doesnt fit, its fine as it is. leave the sword parry rule as it is in the rulebook, tis fine. wizards casting is again fine. so is the rat ogere beign a regular warband member i dont see the issues with it.

[azoxystrobin]

Marticus, I...
That would be the "always strike first" rule from the v8 rulebook, I thought people would realise that was what i meant by "strike first"
The re-roll does seem too powerful, but then again in our group it is negated by the parry rule (as both rules force to re-roll)

Actually there's a funny thing, in the warhammer v8 FAQ, it says when two rules oppose each other, roll a d6 to see which one takes precedence.
Why not just make one re-roll cancel the other, and therefore, not re-roll at all?

The invulnerable shield is too much I think. We'll stick to +1 armor save, as per v7.

Our parry was to counter the fact that the original mordheim parry is so under par when compared to concuss, whilst being more expensive.

Gang sizes are because they don't do what they are supposed to.
Skaven are supposed to be weak and plentiful, but look at the statlines, those skaven are better than humans on everything except Ld, and Ld doesn't matter when you don't take rout tests.

Thanks for your input, even though you don't like it at all ^^

[LAZtheinfamous]

I think a lot of your changes have to do with with if you enjoy the particular edition of WHFB. The first thing that I notice about the house rules you put up is that they tend to make the game a bit more complex.

Breaking it down;
The shield+simple hand weapon giving a +1 save is one of the most common house rules, as is half price armor.
First strike is fine.
I agree the sling is a bit over powered for its price, but most other ranged weapons are fine. You already can't use ranged weapons in melee (except for pistols on the first round)
Not a fan of random charges. It makes charging more complex and also makes it less tactical.
I don't particularly like the initiative order even for charges, it makes slow warbands like Dwarves at even more of a disadvantage. The extra attack on the charge might be a worthy trade off, but I doubt it.
The change of limiting heroes and number of members does hurt certain warbands, especially those with weak henchmen like O&G.
Most of the weapon changes you mention are actually covered in the latest version of the FAQ.
The extra casting die is nice, but wizards are over powered already. Especially the warlock.
Rat Ogre as a regular hired sword? It works, not a change I would do, but it works out.

[Marticus]

its not a matter of not liking it, well apart from the eighth ed bits :P its intersting to see what other people make of it, i mean weve played it "stock" since day one, and never really felt the need to change it. so looking at other peoples views is refreshing :)

[azoxystrobin]

True marticus, true.
There are games like that, I for one think that space hulk is pretty much perfect. But not so much mordheim.
Partially because of all this overpoweed skaven cheese.
Didn't you get the problem of everyone doing what is essentially the same skaven gang? 6 heroes (as good as or better than any human counterpart), 20 models (again no worse than humans) slings, slings everywhere, and then skaven magic?

Anyway, I almost liked WHFBv8.
The mechanics of the game do actually work well, including the random charge ranges and all fighting in initiative order.
What got me though was overpowered lol randum magic, and why did they change the army building system? so that every last 500 point army from any race can contain a wizard lord?

Anyway, as you both say that shooting isn't too powerful, we'll be putting the original prices back on stuff. most things only had a 5gc price hike, but that can make the difference.
We have tested the rochelle system, and it does work, the +1 attack on the charge is a real relief, it's so horrible when you roll that single attack die, and it comes up inevitably as a '1'
so rolling 2 dice is better, it's also great incentive to get models charging rather than sitting at the back shooting off all those slings.

The random charge distance isn't that bad, because you roll 2 dice but keep the best result, this actually implies charging dwarfs ! O_o (who can charge between 4 and 9 inches this way)
You can't just dance off centre at 8.1" from an enemy because of this.
We're not going to bother with the first strike re-roll either, nor the 6+ ward save for shield + hand weapon.

[Yarrick79]

Ah, good I found a thread about Mordheim. Ok so guys I have a few questions on some rules. 1. My wife wants to know if she can use her Black Coach from the Vampire Counts in her warband (we haven't started playing yet, probably not for another week or so), is this possible? What would the rules be like for it though? 2. Has anyone tried to integrate some of the armies found in WHFB to Mordheim yet? I know there is the Dwarves so far but I also haven't seen any rules on the Elves?

A very curious gamer (and happy that I have a wife that is willing to play these games with me). Thanks guys.

David

[LAZtheinfamous]

1. Black Coach would be WAY too powerful.
2. There are quite a few, most are fan made though, available at http://www.mordheimer.com