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Honsou
16-10-2009, 12:46 PM
Starting from the force that zorganist has been kind enough to donate to the cause, I headed down to my local GW yesterday and sat down with one of the guys there, to work out a list I can work towards. It should be able top perform well in almost all situations, and be sufficiently tactically adaptable to stand as a sort of all-comers list; as well as not cutting too deep a hole in my pocket.

So, this is the list- thoughts would be appreciated; and any tactical comments, etc that people may have are welcome as well.

Lord:
General- Shield, barded warhorese, full plate (116 pts)

Hero:
Captain- Pistol, full plate, rod of command, great weapon (118 pts)

Core:
20 Swordsmen- full command + Detachment (145 pts)
Detachment: 10 Militia (50 pts)

20 Swordsmen- full command + Detachment (145 pts)
Detachment: 10 Militia (50 pts)

6 Knights- full command (178 pts)

5 Knights- musician+ champion (139 pts)

5 Knights- musician (123 pts)

10 Handgunners - Marksman w/ Hochland Long Rifle (105 pts)

10 Handgunners - Marksman w/ Hochland Long Rifle (105 pts)

10 Handgunners - Marksman w/ Hochland Long Rifle (105 pts)

10 Crossbowmen (80 pts)

Special:
5 Pistoliers- Outrider w/ repeater + musician (114 pts)

5 Pistoliers- Outrider w/ repeater + musician (114 pts)

1 Great cannon (100 pts)

1 Great cannon (100 pts)

Rare:
1 Hellblaster Volley Gun (110 pts)

Total pts: 1997 pts.

Basic idea is to have a pretty hefty gun line to thin down the enemy, using the pistoliers to slow down the advance of as much of their force as possible- leaving the close combat infantry component to pin and destroy the (hopefully) thined out units. The General would be joining the unit of 6 knights, while the captain would join one of the two swordsmen units to make sure they don't go anywhere. The knights would act as a mobile reserve to chase down enemy units, and help out the infantry when necessary.

Thoughts?

japehlio
16-10-2009, 01:13 PM
well, id drop some of the knights from one of the units, make the bigger one up to 9 strong (plus the general = 10 strong, 2 ranks of 5 for a rank bonus), and perhaps make them inner circle, or give them a banner...

Handgunners are evil, rather the hochland long rifle is. There, you have 9 ablative wounds, allowing your sharpshooter to pick out enemy characters seperately from what the unit is shooting at (one of the few things vampires fear...)

only thing i would critique is that there is no magic defense, not even a scroll caddy (lvl 1 wizard with 2 dispel scrolls)

I like the tactics, pistoliers out front doing the "shoot-retreat-shoot" light cavelry thing, and hopefully drawing your foe onto your swordsmen. Have the big knights on a flank, ready to charge a pinned unit (beware counter charges, Id actually try to hold them back unitl all enemy units are committed to combat). Im not really sure what the second knight unit will do however, unless there is a very thinned enemy unit, as they are quite a small unit...

I would suggest try fitting some magic banners into your army, they can be VERY handy, and maybe a cheap wizard? or even a warrior priest if you want, he can take dispel scrolls too, but still hit things!

Honsou
16-10-2009, 01:38 PM
Well, my thinking was this:

The Knights would act en concert, much like detachments to each other AND to the main line of infantry. So, they could take on a unit or roll in and support an embattled infantry unit from the other flank/rear. It would enable them to act as a sort of mobile reserve- to be commited when they are needed, and providing some extra power to deal with outflanking attempts or such-like.

As to the Hochland Rifle- I did initially have 5 units of 10 Handgunners planned, but on recommendation I dropped two, replaced one with a crossbowmen unit (longer range, so they could sit slightly further back- thus shortening the line) and a Hellbalster VG (I'm told these can be quite nasty for an enemy to deal with?). Since that force otherwise lacked character killing power, I figured I'd get as many of those as I could- particularly since they can fire along with the rest of the unit when there aren't any characters to be killed.

Of course my thinking may not necessarily apply to WHFB, I've not yet had the opportunity to hone my skills in that regard.

As to magic- I'm maxed on on points so far, so I'd have to drop something. How important is it to have magic as part of the force (from what I'm told it can be quite powerful?), and what's the best configuration if one were to include limited magical potential in this force?

Aeth
16-10-2009, 07:44 PM
Even if you're not planning on a lot of offensive magic an 'all comers' list needs magic defense. If all you have is the standard 2 dispell dice it won't be pretty if you come up against something like dark elves running more than one sorceress.

Honsou
16-10-2009, 07:48 PM
Ok, that makes sense I suppose. So what do you suggest?

japehlio
16-10-2009, 10:10 PM
Magic can be game winning, but NEVER EVER rely on it to win for you...

Id drop something and taking a "scroll caddy", a basic, level one wizard (adds 1 dispel dice), whose onnly job is to carry two dispel scrolls (50 points). [as an aside, only magic users can take Arcane Items-scrolls and such] His job will be negating some enemy magic. Important thing! learn to let some spells through and stop others. Opponents generally use small spells first to try and draw out dispel dice. Sometimes you'l have to say "do I REALLY need to stop that fireball, which will do d6 wounds?"...

knights, you need the main unit to be bigger than 6, as the six wont really cut it im afraid.
Hochland long rifles, as i said, are great character killers. Your list, as is, has no magic, try usng them to take out wizards and wizard lords, who more often than not have no save (and usually no armour save!). If you eliminate your enemies magic, you wont care about your own defense will you!

Hellblasters-fun, risky, bit like Orks. But not green or smelly.
You can fire up to three barrels per turn. For each barrel, you roll an artillery dice (gives you either 2,4,6,8, or ten shots, or a misfire) These (I believe) auto hit. So its a case of potential 30 shots vs 3 chances of getting a misfire, you know? And Misfires for Helblasters are generally bad. For the crew anyway. So yeah, you have to have one!

mastershaper
17-10-2009, 12:38 PM
The swordsmen need to be in units of 25+
and combat detachments should be in 9's and fight in a 3x3 formation

Honsou
17-10-2009, 01:08 PM
The swordsmen need to be in units of 25+
and combat detachments should be in 9's and fight in a 3x3 formation

What's the reasoning for the increased swordsmen unit size? As to the detachments, from what I'm told they need to be 5 wide, 2 deep to affect the enemy's bonuses, and to strike the maximum number of blows in any given circumstance?

Marticus
17-10-2009, 01:10 PM
i would go with the 5 wide 2 deep myself 3 by 3 is pointless as you cant negate rank bonus and lesson your attacks. they will strike maximum blows like that honsou and still give ya that negating flank bonus,

Honsou
17-10-2009, 01:33 PM
That's what I thought, yeah. So I'll leave them as is, but what's the argument for 25+ in the swordsmen units?

And what recommendations do people have for the Knights- run 'em together into one, maybe two, bigger units?

Marticus
17-10-2009, 01:36 PM
not so sure on the swordsman, unless the thought is to keep maximum rank bonus for longer, or to go 6 wide witht he normal rank bonus. im not sure .. i always tend to run in blocks of 20 for my units and keep to that. im not sure what the thoughts on the knights are either, again i run them in 5s for a hard hitting flank force, relying ont he armour and leadership of my elven knights to carry the flight or as you say a supporting unit for my line to charge flanks and such. units of ten are doable, as you do get a plus one bonus to rank plus usually not the outnumbered bonus against you as cavalry count as 2 for uit size, so 10 cav have the same unit strength as 20 infantry when it comes to that. dont overlook warrior priests for getting that extra dispell dice into the pool, and they are solid fighters as well!

mastershaper
17-10-2009, 03:50 PM
what I'm told they need to be 5 wide, 2 deep to affect the enemy's bonuses, and to strike the maximum number of blows in any given circumstance?

This is wrong you put them in 3x3 to keep space down and they will still regate ranks, negating ranks goes on unit strength, it is the best way to run combat detachments as will any tournament empire players will say



What's the reasoning for the increased swordsmen unit size?

Swordsmen do not win combat by killing them they win with 3ranks standard outnumber flank thats plus 6 before you have even thrown a blow

By having 20 and one round of magic or shooting you can loose 1 rank and the outnumber bonus

If you want these units to be successful I would take this advice

japehlio
18-10-2009, 02:30 PM
I agree, you need to be Unit strength 5, not in a rank of 5, to break an enemies rank bonus. Plus, the 3x3 means they are smaller, with your list you will be cramped for space, so every little helps...

Honsou
18-10-2009, 02:37 PM
Well, here's the current new list, still working on it. I'm gonna run it, and some of the things people have said here, by some of the chaps at GW tomorrow.

Lord:
General: shield, barded warhorse, full plate (116)

Hero:
Captain: Pistol, full flate, rod of command, great weapon (118)

Battle Wizard: level 2, 2 dispel scrolls (150)

Core:
20 Swordsmen: full command+ detachment (145)
Detachment- 10 Militia (50)

20 Swordsmen: full command+ detachment (145)
Detachment- 10 Militia (50)

9 Knights- full command (247)

10 Handgunners- Marksman w/ Hochland R. (105)

10 Handgunners- Marksman w/ Hochland R. (105)

10 Handgunners- Marksman w/ Hochland R. (105)

10 Crossbowmen (80)

Special:
5 Pistoliers- Outrider w/ Repeater, musician (114)

5 Pistloiers- Outrider w/ Repeater, musician (114)

1 Great Cannon (100)

1 Great Cannon (100)

Rare:
Hellblaster Volley Gun (110)

Total: 1954 points

Thoughts?

Ossai
18-10-2009, 02:43 PM
Hellblasters-fun, risky, bit like Orks. But not green or smelly.
You can fire up to three barrels per turn. For each barrel, you roll an artillery dice (gives you either 2,4,6,8, or ten shots, or a misfire) These (I believe) auto hit. So its a case of potential 30 shots vs 3 chances of getting a misfire, you know? And Misfires for Helblasters are generally bad. For the crew anyway. So yeah, you have to have one!
Hellblasters do not autohit unfortunately, however their misfire chart can still be devastating for your opponent. and the chance to have 30 str 5 shots is incredible.

Misfires is a 1 in 6 chance, but you have 3 of these ;)

As to magic, a level 1 wizard with two scrolls is what you need. It is unlikely he will get much magic through (unless you are playing khorne, and even then...) but he does have 3 DD and 2 DS for you to get rid of the most dangerous magic to your units.

The new list is looking good, but for a gunline it is missing one thinkg: Cannons ;)
They are not necessary, and it is nice to see a gunline of troops rather than one of artillery.

mastershaper
18-10-2009, 03:54 PM
Make 1 or 2 of your shooting units into detachments for the other ones and as said again take combat detachments in 9's

Honsou
18-10-2009, 04:56 PM
Well I'm gonna run the unit of 9 approach by a few people tomorrow, my local has some extremely experienced tourney players, so they should be able to help out with that. Until I've talked it through with them, I'm gonna leave it with 10.

In the meantime, requirements force me to change it again:

Lord:
General: shield, barded warhorse, full plate (116)

Hero:
Captain: Pistol, full flate, rod of command, great weapon (118)

Warrior Priest of Sigmar: great weapon, heavy armor, shield (100)

Battle Wizard: level 1, 1 dispel scroll (90)

Core:
20 Swordsmen: full command+ detachment (145)
Detachment- 10 Militia (50)

20 Swordsmen: full command+ detachment (145)
Detachment- 10 Militia (50)

9 Knights- full command (247)

10 Handgunners- Marksman w/ Hochland R. (105)

10 Handgunners- Marksman w/ Hochland R. (105)

10 Handgunners- Marksman w/ Hochland R. (105)

10 Crossbowmen (80)

Special:
5 Pistoliers- Outrider w/ Repeater, musician (114)

5 Pistloiers- Outrider w/ Repeater, musician (114)

1 Great Cannon (100)

1 Great Cannon (100)

Rare:
Hellblaster Volley Gun (110)

Total Points: 1994

Unfortunately, that list wouldn't allow me to take any dispel scrolls; unless I lose 19 points somewhere (in which case I could take one). I've been thinking I could probably lose the Hellblaster Volley Gun for an average match- it seems great fun, but also somewhat of fickle one trick pony. That would certainly give me room for dispel scrolls.

As to the detachments- why, they are never really going to be in the position to be charged or charging, and what with the half strength rule that means lots of little groups that may not do much?

Ossai
18-10-2009, 06:21 PM
You still have 31 points left over there, A dispel scroll is 25 points is it not?

Honsou
18-10-2009, 08:38 PM
That is true, you're absolutely right. I overlooked that from calculating in multiples of two.

Ossai
18-10-2009, 08:42 PM
http://www.smileyhut.com/confused/doh.gif

That would leave you 6 points to spend on...something.

Honsou
18-10-2009, 10:57 PM
I think the only thing that cheap is... a Biting Blade :p And I don't really have anywhere to put it ;)

Ossai
18-10-2009, 10:59 PM
Give it to the battle wizard? lol

Honsou
18-10-2009, 11:01 PM
It causes -1 to armor save. How is that in any way useful for the battle wizard ;)

Ossai
18-10-2009, 11:03 PM
Pff, he may get into combat. Never know ;)

Honsou
18-10-2009, 11:27 PM
Not if I have anything to say about it :p

Ossai
18-10-2009, 11:30 PM
Good point. Where is he going anyways, With the handgunners?

Honsou
18-10-2009, 11:33 PM
I figure so- I'm thinking stick the Warrior Priest in with the second unit of swordsmen to give them some extra benefits from his presence (the other unit has the captain with the rod of command and all that), and put the wizard well out of harms way with the handgunners or the artillery.

The basic strategy remains exactly the same- draw the enemy onto a static line, using artillery and a gun line to thin their numbers out, while using the Pistoliers to slow the enemy advance, and harass any artillery, characters and so on.

The static swordsmen and detachments are tasked with doing the killy bits, wiping out the (hopefully) weakened enemy units, with the help of the Knights as necessary. The captain and the Warrior priest are in those units basically to make sure they don't go anywhere, and to give them a little extra killy power.

Ossai
18-10-2009, 11:42 PM
Sounds like a plan :D

mastershaper
19-10-2009, 07:49 AM
If you put a warrior priest in your swordsmen mount him, hatred causes you to chase fleeing enemies so run him on his own with a higher chance of doing it leaving your main block defending your shooting

Mr Jam
19-10-2009, 09:57 PM
To be honest, I'd get rid of the rod of command and make that captain a BSB. In my opinion, it would be better to improve your chance of winning the combat than to minimise damage done if you lose. That being said of course, depends on who you're facing. Against something that excels in close combat, like WoC, it doesn't really matter what you have.

Knights are always better in large units, the small ones become a lot smaller far too quickly. Pistoliers are best in as small a unit as possible, so that's all good.

Volley guns are a must. When they work, they're probably the most effective thing you can have against infantry. Unfortunately you still have to roll to hit. A good idea might be to include a Master Engineer with a Hochland Rifle in the crew so you can fire with BS4. Also, if you don't use it, you have another character killer.

Empire wizards aren't particularly powerful, but they are versatile and cheap, and make good scroll caddies. Please include at least 1 in a 2000 point army. If you really can't, then a warrior priest will give you an extra dispel dice and some hatred for a unit.

And the best thing to remember is to play some games. No matter how good anybody here is, the best person to get advice from is yourself. Play some smaller games first and just see what you feel your army needs.

Honsou
20-10-2009, 03:23 PM
Well you gone and guessed it aint ya, I've gone and changed it again... should work, it covers all the bases, but what are people's thoughts:

Lord:
General- shield, barded warhorse, full plate, lance (122)

Hero:
Captain- pistol, full plate, rod of command, great weapon (118)

Warrior Priest- Great weapon, heavy armor, shield (100)

Battle Wizard- level 1, 1 dispel scroll (90)

Core:
19 Swordsmen- full command+ detachment (139)
Detachment: 9 Militia (45)

19 Swordsmen- full command+ detachment (139)
Detachment: 9 Militia (45)

9 Knights- full command, steel standard (267)

10 Handgunners- Marksman w/ Hochland R. (105)

10 Hangunners- Marksman w/ Hochland R. (105)

10 Handgunners- Marksman w/ Hochland R. (105)

10 Crossbowmen (80)

Special:
5 Pistoliers- Outrider w/ repeater (114)

5 Pistoliers- Outrider w/ repeater (114)

1 Great Cannon (100)

1 Great Cannon (100)

Rare:
Hellblaster Volleygun (110)

Marticus
20-10-2009, 03:25 PM
seems solid to me, nice to see the anti magic in fht eform of the wizard and the priest will add dispel and be fighty too! his prayers can be handy if you can manage to get em off

Honsou
20-10-2009, 03:37 PM
Well not to worried about the magic, to be honest. They are mostly there for the anti-magic potential.

Marticus
20-10-2009, 03:50 PM
i thought as much, but never know.. something may slip through the net of your opponent :)

Honsou
20-10-2009, 04:00 PM
i thought as much, but never know.. something may slip through the net of your opponent :)

True enough. I have been considering putting together another list, same basic approach but go real heavy on the magic- the wizard box comes with two, so I could make the other one up as a Wizard Lord or something like that.

Aeth
20-10-2009, 07:31 PM
Thats the really cool thing about Empire, you can make any type of army you want with it.